Commons:Categories for discussion/2016/10/Category:Mailboxes in England

Category:Mailboxes in England

We have a confusing mix of mailbox, letter box and post box here, and this has been misleading editors as to correct categories for images. I suggest we do what Royal Mail do, and have outgoing post being deposited in post boxes. In my experience, incoming mail is put by a postman into a letter box, and I think we should follow that, and (for the UK at least) ditch the concept of mailboxes, which are a US or Canadian usage. Rodhullandemu (talk) 16:57, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Seems eminently sensible. Ardfern (talk) 17:08, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Makes no sense to treat the UK or England differently from everywhere else, (Other countries also have this distinction) category structure has been established for some time. A Mailboxes can either be a post box or letter box hence it is the correct parent for both categories. Also the creator of this discussion has already started altering category structures, if it was worth creating a discussion then surely it was worth waiting a bit so it can be discussed, also the discussion is referring to and should be at Category:Mailboxes in the United Kingdom.Oxyman (talk) 17:19, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep - Has the nominator not bothered to check Category:Mailboxes by country where on same categories (taking Russia as an example) it has

► Letter boxes in Russia‎ (6 F)
► Mailboxes in Moscow‎ (1 C)
► Post boxes in Russia‎ (1 C, 14 F)
I'm not sure as to the actual point of the nomination but as I would say at EN Wiki - AFD IS NOT CLEANUP which this DR essentially is, No valid reason for deletion anyway. –Davey2010^Talk 21:35, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they do things differently in other countries, but in the UK, the term "mailbox" is not in common use. Where people put their outgoing letters is a post box, and this is what Royal Mail, who mostly own them, call them. The receptacle in which a post/wo/man deposits incoming letters for their intended recipient is a letter box. OK, we may call both of these mail boxes, in which case all mail box categories should contain is subcats for post boxes and letter boxes. I see no merit in trickling down categories from mail boxes, because all they should contain is "post boxes in X" and "letter boxes in X". It's easy to tell the difference if you know, but this problem arises because some editors have not understood the distinction between incoming and outgoing receptacles and the use of "Mailbox" is just adding to the confusion. I think we owe it to them just to use terms they are familiar with. And I'll just point out this is a Category for Discussion, not a Category for Deletion. The model of Category:Mailboxes in Russia is the one I'd prefer to see. Rodhullandemu (talk) 21:58, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rodhullandemu - Shit I'm so sorry I thought this was a DR, Clearly going blind!, You're right we don't use Mailboxes in the UK at all - Infact I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to a letterbox or postbox as "mailbox" in all the years I've been alive, Better off deleted to avoid confusion. –Davey2010^Talk 22:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rodhullandemu What do you mean "The model of Category:Mailboxes in Russia is the one I'd prefer to see."? That is the same model as used here which you seem to have a problem with. I'd prefer to see that model remain here. Oxyman (talk) 07:52, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If we have a Category for letterboxs and a category for postboxes what would you call the parent category that contains both of these? "boxes for mail both outgoing and incoming"? Surely better to use a single English word that has it's meaning established Oxyman (talk) 07:57, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So, the term mailbox isn't used in the UK. In the US, we tend to use mailbox for everything. (I can't speak for Canada.) Maybe we need names that are clearer. How about something like "mail receptacles (incoming)" and mail receptacles (outgoing)"? If we try to use mailbox/letter box/postbox, we will keep having to clean up the categories when people who didn't see this discussion don't use them properly. --Auntof6 (talk) 23:05, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Or would it not be best to keep the English language as it is and hope that editors know the meaning of the English words? Oxyman (talk) 07:59, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Any of the suggestions people have made are proper uses of the English language per se. If everyone understood the meaning of the terms being discussed, we wouldn't need the discussion. Since we apparently do need the discussion, it's apparent that not everyone does know the distinction being made. Please don't make comments implying that others don't understand the language. English, after all, is not spoken the same everywhere. --Auntof6 (talk) 08:05, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The current category structure is also proper use of the English language. we don't change the categories as some editors are unaware of the meaning of the terms anywhere else, or we would not have Latin plant names etc. What is needed is that editors familiarise themselves with the terms used. Please don't imply I am unaware English is not spoken the same everywhere. However the meaning of these words is the same everywhere as recorded by the dictionary. Oxyman (talk) 08:14, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I made no such implication: I had no way of knowing whether you were familiar with different types of English, and your insistence that the terms could mean only one thing indicated that you might not be. As for the meaning of the terms, the Merriam-Webster online dictionary offers the following definitions:

letter box: British for mailbox
postbox: mailbox, especially a public mailbox
mailbox:

a box at or near a dwelling for the occupant's mail
a public box for deposit of outgoing mail

The website http://www.webster-dictionary.net offers the following:

letter box: a box for the reception of letters to be mailed or delivered (the opposite of the meaning mentioned above)
mailbox: the same two meanings as above

I'll leave it to those interested to look up what Wiktionary has -- the definitions there are similarly ambiguous. Given these definitions, it's no wonder that things are confused. What would be wrong with trying to make them clearer? --Auntof6 (talk) 08:33, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I also made no such implication, you do realise you have proved exactly what I was saying?

Mailbox can mean either

a box at or near a dwelling for the occupant's mail
a public box for deposit of outgoing mail

That is precisely how it is used here and yes a postbox is a public mailbox, what is wrong with your attempts to make the category structure clearer is that it would have the opposite effect, It would disturb an established cat structure that has existed for some time without need for these alterations, also some of these proposals would treat the UK differently from everywhere else, thus creating more confusion and a greater likelihood that someone in the future would come along and move the UK cats attempting to standardise the terms used. Thus on balance the current, established, standardised and well thought out (even is some editiors were unaware of this) category structure should remain. Oxyman (talk) 08:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I realize that the definitions make the point that "mailbox" is an unclear term. They also make the point that post box and letter box aren't always clear, either. I wasn't suggesting that we keep any of those. I suggested that we use different terms altogether (receptacles, qualified with either incoming or outgoing), rather than use any term that could be misunderstood. Those aren't the only other terms that could be used, they're just what seemed good to me at the time. We could also use "boxes for receiving mail" and "boxes for sending mail", or similar things. I realize you don't want to change, but this seems to be a case of either change or plan on periodically having to clean up incorrectly categorized files in the future. Why would you want to keep something that people will routinely get wrong? --Auntof6 (talk) 09:07, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So the dictionary describing what mailbox means makes the term unclear? and also describing what a post box and a letter box also makes them unclear? Strangely for me the description from the dictionary makes the term clear, do we really need to accommodate people that are confused by dictionary definitions? Your suggestions make the category names longer and usually it is attempted to make them shorter also you have failed to suggest what the parent category of "boxes for receiving mail" and "boxes for sending mail" should be "boxes for sending or receiving mail" those are lengthy names for categories when we have 1 or 2 word equivalents. So your arguments is that we should use long winded terms just in case someone who is unaware of definitions misunderstands them? Why when we have had minimal and manageable incorrectly categorized files so far should there be a problem in the future? Why when people don't "routinely get wrong" now should this change in the future? It seems to me that these are assumptions by people that have only become aware of this category structure as a result of this discussion rather than people that have been aware of it and involved with it for some time. Oxyman (talk) 09:22, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are misinterpreting what I said. However, I don't want to argue with you, so I'm through with this discussion. --Auntof6 (talk) 09:29, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are misinterpreting what the dictionary said Oxyman (talk) 09:32, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'd avoid any artificial terms like receptacle, which are never used. Contrast that situation with aeroplane/airplane, where the neutral term aircraft is often used. When consulting a dictionary be aware of its market - Miriam-Webster is an American publisher, so provides an American English dictionary. OED (British English) states:

Mailbox: (N American) A box for delivery, especially one mounted on a post at the entrance to a person's property. OR a postbox
Postbox: A public box for collection
Letter box: A box outside, or slot in wall, for delivery.

So British English makes a clear distinction between collection and delivery.

I'd suggest letterbox is used for delivery boxes, and postbox is used for collection boxes within the UK, and potentially globally to remove confusion. By using the two distinct names globally, it allows distinct names for the two distinct classes of objects even in the USA (This is related, but different, to this). It also has the benefit of matching the English Wikipedia articles on these subjects.

I'd also point out the current status of Category:Mailboxes in the United States. As for mailbox categories - either treating them as a disambiguation category, or as the parent category for both letterboxes and postboxes should be fine. I'd recommend final structure as follows:

Mailbox
1. Postbox
2. Letterbox

In other words, Mailbox as a parent to postbox and letterbox (and also potentially email boxes too).--Nilfanion (talk) 10:21, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This IS the structure that is currently used! Oxyman (talk) 10:31, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then we stay put then (and the British mailbox cat would stay empty most of the time) :) One minor point is that Street furniture should not apply to UK letterboxes (a slot in a door is not street furniture), but should apply to UK postboxes; while it should apply to all US mailboxes.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:35, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This discussion applies to all countries in order to keep the category structure neat and simple. The most logical structure that I have been using for years, from a postal and philatelic point of view is:

Mailboxes in foo, this is a parent category that should usually be empty
Subcategories
- Post boxes in foo, these are for posting mail that the post office will collect, sort and deliver
- Letter boxes in foo, for receiving mail

Just look at the main parent category Category:Mailboxes by country and you see the first two categories are Letter boxes by country and Post boxes by country then each country should have its own Post box and Letter box subcategories. In fact the parent category should probably be a deb page with an explanatory note just like Category:Mailboxes in the United States. There is no reason to have anything else. Ww2censor (talk) 07:57, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: User:ŠJů, probably unaware of this discussion, has moved the content of Category:Post office boxes by country and Category:Post office boxes in the Czech Republic to letter box categories and asked for speedy deletion of the emptied cats. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:46, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Auntof6: Some discussion about this problem was resolved once in 2010 (I cannot find the discussion itself but I think,this fitting category description followed it - here it was adpoted also to the Czech subcategory). As I can see, this new discussion needs nothing else then to apply the since 2010 respected consensus even for such forgotten countries which didn't apply it yet even during 7 years. Is there some new and serious reason to reopen the old discussion or revoke the old and convenient consensus?

The two missnamed categories proposed to speedy deletion were created recently by an user which often creates duplicate, misspelled or conspicuously unsystematical categories. He is very helpful and active and of the best will, but has ...ehm... a specific lack of sense for the categorization system. I suppose, he would not protest against the existing system established since 2010. The only one included image was recategorized by standard way. --ŠJů (talk) 17:12, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stale discussion. I added this 2010 CFD (mentioned by User:ŠJů) at the hatnote of this discussion. Maybe it is helpful and helps to move on with this CFD--Estopedist1 (talk) 08:37, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]